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HaloGuardian
08-14-2006, 04:07 AM
Terror alert: Blair to force through 90-day detention

BRIAN BRADY AND EDDIE BARNES

TONY Blair is planning to push through 90-day detention without charge for terror suspects following the alleged plot to murder thousands of airline passengers by blowing their jets out of the sky.

Senior ministers believe public concern about terrorism is now at such a level that they will be able to reintroduce the controversial detention powers, which were rejected in favour of a 28-day limit following the 7/7 attacks.

A senior government source confirmed that Blair, Chancellor Gordon Brown and Home Secretary John Reid all believed that the UK's apparently narrow escape from a major disaster proved the case for a clamp-down on "the enemy within".

The source said: "It is one of the few things that Brown, Blair and Reid can agree on."

The 90-day proposal - rejected following a humiliating rebellion by Labour MPs last November - is expected to form the centrepiece of further anti-terror powers to be included in the Queen's Speech this autumn.

The uncompromising response to the growing threat came as it emerged that the ban on hand luggage on British aircraft is set to continue indefinitely, and could be bolstered by stringent new security screening at all the nation's airports.

Britain remained on its highest state of terror alert last night as detectives continued to question more than 20 suspects over the alleged plot to bring down airliners by using liquid explosives.

As UK detectives interrogated suspects seized in Thursday's dawn raids, officials in Pakistan arrested British-born Rashid Rauf, saying his detention and that of others in the country had "triggered" the raids in London, Birmingham and High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire.

But suggestions that the government was ready to return to the fray over 90-day detention have been greeted with horror by opponents, who claim the original drive to extend police powers was a draconian attack on human rights.

David Winnick, the veteran Labour MP who put forward the 28-day "compromise" limit agreed by Parliament last year, said the move would be "totally unjustified", but added that he fully expected ministers to use the latest terror scare to push for a longer period.
He told Scotland on Sunday: "Under no circumstances should they be allowed to raise the limit. My view remains that if the police have got evidence they should charge.

"Going back only a few years ago, police had just two or three days to release or charge suspects and that figure has repeatedly been increased by Parliament with little opposition.

"The danger is that by increasing it steadily, you get up to 90 days and then people will start saying 90 days isn't enough."

A spokeswoman for human-rights watchdog Liberty warned that the government should not try to "legislate its way to safety".
She added: "The doubling of the detention limit - from 14 days to 28 - only took effect last month. We should be observing how satisfactory that is before rushing off and demanding a higher limit."

Former home secretary Charles Clarke argued that the 90-day proposal, put forward by the police, was required to help them carry out the enormous and meticulous counter-terror investigations demanded by the modern threats.

But the plan was rejected by 49 Labour MPs, who helped deliver Blair's first Commons defeat as leader.

Clarke hinted earlier this year that he had not given up hope that the 90-day limit would feature in future government proposals when he confirmed plans to produce another Terrorism Bill next year or in 2008.

The momentum gathered last month, when a report from the MPs' Home Affairs Committee concluded that the number and scope of investigations, and the requirement to move in to make arrests at an earlier stage meant the 28-day limit would have to be extended at some stage.

Brown has publicly stated his support for extending police powers to detain without charge, although he insists that there must be "safeguards" in place to ensure suspects are not unfairly imprisoned.
Government aides last night claimed that the scale of the alleged bomb plot reinforces their repeated warnings about the threat facing the country. Communities and Local Government Secretary Ruth Kelly will attempt to improve co-operation with British Muslims through a renewed "roadshow" tomorrow.

But more senior colleagues in the Cabinet are considering a less conciliatory response to the threat.

"We are concentrating on the threat which is in front of us right now," a Home Office source said last night.

"But there is a consensus about what we require to tackle this threat. The government has never hidden its views on detention."
Ministers are understood to be considering new bomb-detecting screening systems for British airports in the wake of last week's scare.

The current machines are unable to pick up the cocktail of liquid chemicals which the alleged terrorists were planning to smuggle onto flights.

New so-called 'puffer machines', which shoot jets of air at passengers and gather particles of skin and clothes to check for evidence of explosive material, are likely to be considered.
Similar machines have been installed in several American airports and are being tested to see if they successfully identify chemicals used to make bombs.

Alternatively, airports could install X-ray machines which can pick up organic materials used in many explosives.

Ministers met on Friday to discuss introducing new technology into airports to counter the growing threat.

One insider said: "They are going away to think up a system that the airlines can deliver, that is safe and people will tolerate.

"They are looking at new technology that might be delivered without taking up too much of passengers' time."


http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1178302006&format=print

Tex
08-14-2006, 06:05 AM
So, all this time Osama's goal has been to make it harder for Al-Qaeda operatives to get on airlines to blow them up, along with common, everyday folks, and to make the world live in "fear" so politicians can limit our rights as human beings on this planet?

Brilliant plan. I never would have guessed. What a great "victory," indeed. :hsugh:

chunkreloaded
08-14-2006, 04:07 PM
So, all this time Osama's goal has been to make it harder for Al-Qaeda operatives to get on airlines to blow them up, along with common, everyday folks, and to make the world live in "fear" so politicians can limit our rights as human beings on this planet?
Brilliant plan. I never would have guessed. What a great "victory," indeed. :hsugh:

When your door gets kicked down and your family dragged into the street by some masked government agents...you'll be singing a different song.

TheZenMan
08-14-2006, 05:29 PM
When your door gets kicked down and your family dragged into the street by some masked government agents...you'll be singing a different song.

Um....yeah.

outsider
08-14-2006, 05:37 PM
The thing is, people have been dragged away by government agents already and detained indefinitely as a terrorist suspect. And further, it's nothing new either.

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Apr/bch20030430019808.htm

HaloGuardian
08-14-2006, 09:13 PM
Yup, it's easy to say no biggie until you are the one targeted and you did nothing wrong.

Tex
08-14-2006, 09:25 PM
When your door gets kicked down and your family dragged into the street by some masked government agents...you'll be singing a different song.

Riiiiiiight!!!!!!

HaloGuardian
08-14-2006, 09:28 PM
It's never happened before to anyone who was innocent right tex? Oh yeah in Waco, it was televised and the government got away with burning down a house filled with men, women and children. But lets just forget that all happened right?

*bends over

Tex
08-14-2006, 09:37 PM
It's never happened before to anyone who was innocent right tex? Oh yeah in Waco, it was televised and the government got away with burning down a house filled with men, women and children. But lets just forget that all happened right?

*bends over

This really is stepping away from the title of your thread about Osama winning the war on terror, and the correlation you were making, but fine. So be it.

http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html

"Simultaneously, during 1999 former United States Senator John Danforth (Republican-Missouri) conducted an independent investigation regarding Waco. After 10 months, which included interviews with about 900 witnesses, the examination of 2.3 million pages of documents and an expense of between $10 million to $11 million dollars Danforth concluded with "100 percent certainty" that the FBI did not start the fire or shoot at cult members during the fire. He further stated, "There are no doubts in my mind," and concluded, "The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of David Koresh." The Danforth Report published in November 2000 unequivocally reaffirmed the conclusions previously submitted July 21, 2000 in his Special Interim Report, which cited the following five points:

1. Government agents did not start the fire at Waco;

2. Government agents did not shoot at the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993;

3. Government agents did not improperly use the United States military;

4. Government agents did not engage in a massive conspiracy and cover-up. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Attorney General Reno, the present and former Director of the FBI, other high officials of the United States, or the individual members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team who fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds on April 19, 1993.

5. Responsibility for the tragedy at Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and their leader, David Koresh, who shot and killed four ATF agents, wounded twenty others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least twenty of their own people, including five children.

Not content with the court's decision, the Waco Davidian survivors pursued appeals. But in June of 2003 without dissent, a three-judge panel of the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rejected an attempt by the survivors to collect damages from the government. Less than a year later in 2004, the nine justices of the Supreme Court of the United States refused to hear their appeal, questioning the conduct of a judge involved in lawsuits over the Branch Davidian siege outside Waco.

Despite these facts, which have been established repeatedly by the detailed examination and analysis of the evidence and reported through a succession of investigations, hearings and court actions, the Waco Davidian Standoff continues to be a favorite topic amongst anti-government conspiracy theorists.

It seems this subculture of suspicion insists upon turning this cult tragedy into a thriving "cottage industry," which has included documentaries, books, videos (available through numerous Web sites) and even speaking tours. It is doubtful that such extremists will ever accept the facts about the Davidians and will instead perpetuate their own alternative version of reality for propaganda and profit."

EDIT: And I'm sure you can throw up countless conspiracy theory sites, just like you have about 9-11, but their merit is questionable.

Also, if you take time to read the article, this guy wasn't Jesus by any stretch of the imagination (pun intended) or was an angel. Look at the charges against him, things he had done, and you'll see he was an asshole that the government had reason to want to put into custody.

That's a far cry from what Chunk said, though, as it relates to me specifically.

HaloGuardian
08-14-2006, 09:41 PM
have you seen the video of it tex?

Tex
08-14-2006, 09:57 PM
have you seen the video of it tex?

I've read a lot of conspiracy theories relating to a "video," if it's the one I'm assuming you're speaking of, just as I've read conspiracy theories about how the Twin Towers fell on 9-11 the way they did because of controlled explosions, as they try to point out in the videos of the towers collapsing.

All BS I say, until the evidence proves otherwise.

Tex
08-14-2006, 10:12 PM
Yup, it's easy to say no biggie until you are the one targeted and you did nothing wrong.

If I was a Muslim, I'd proably be concerned. But I'm a 35-year-old white professional in the reporting/videography field, so these crazy notions of my door being kicked in someday are preposterous.

Yeah, you're right. It's really "no biggie" to me. Though, I do feel sorry for innocent Muslims, who along with the guilty, will pay the price. I know what it feels like to be among shitbags as an innocent person accused of something I didn't do. It sucks, but it happens all the time in this country.

And, really, we're going beyond what your thread says, Halo, that Osama has won. I'm sure he'd disagree with your opinion.

HaloGuardian
08-14-2006, 10:18 PM
I've read a lot of conspiracy theories relating to a "video," if it's the one I'm assuming you're speaking of, just as I've read conspiracy theories about how the Twin Towers fell on 9-11 the way they did because of controlled explosions, as they try to point out in the videos of the towers collapsing.

All BS I say, until the evidence proves otherwise.

Go watch it for yourself then you tell me if ATF was shooting at the citizens from helicopters. And tell me if they were ramming tanks into the side of the compound. And also if they were spraying gas inside it. There is 0 reason to defend the ATF in this instance unless your name is Janet Reno.

HaloGuardian
08-14-2006, 10:19 PM
But I'm a 35-year-old white professional in the reporting/videography field, so these crazy notions of my door being kicked in someday are preposterous.


Right now.

Tex
08-14-2006, 10:24 PM
Go watch it for yourself then you tell me if ATF was shooting at the citizens from helicopters. And tell me if they were ramming tanks into the side of the compound. And also if they were spraying gas inside it. There is 0 reason to defend the ATF in this instance unless your name is Janet Reno.

I saw the video of the tanks ramming the compound and them spraying gas inside of it. That usually occurs when suspects won't come out of a building. Especially one that's armed to the teeth with weapons that had already been discharged against the ATF. But it usually takes a matter of hours, and not countless days, for such action to be taken.

Now, the helicopter deal you bring up I've never heard of. Were they returning fire at the time of the initial assault, or is this just a bird flying around just trying to snipe people after the initial chaos for sport?

I think I'll google that one. Never heard of it.

HaloGuardian
08-14-2006, 10:27 PM
I'm not giving links anymore, it's no use. Happy hunting. And yes WACO does relate to the topic at hand. Government rapes it's citizens, get's away with it, people don't care because it was for their protection.

Tex
08-14-2006, 10:37 PM
I'm not giving links anymore, it's no use. Happy hunting. And yes WACO does relate to the topic at hand. Government rapes it's citizens, get's away with it, people don't care because it was for their protection.

No need to give links. I went "hunting" on my own. Just more conspiracy bullcrap.

I understand your government trying to control us like sheep conspiracy theories, but that doesn't relate to "Breaking News: Bin-Laden wins war on Terror," as your thread is titled. It wasn't his purpose. If we go along with the way you think, it would be what's called a byproduct of his actions.

What you're bringing up could be an entirely new thread in my opinion.

GoodCitizenDan
08-14-2006, 11:32 PM
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. [. . .] And when they finally came for me, there was no one left to speak out”"

Edit: couldn't remember the whole quote at first.... I think I finally got it right this time...

Tex
08-14-2006, 11:52 PM
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. [. . .] And when they finally came for me, there was no one left to speak out”"

Edit: couldn't remember the whole quote at first.... I think I finally got it right this time...


Well, it does make more sense than the 1, 2 and 3 deal. But now I have to rewrite my response, damnit. :mad:

GoodCitizenDan
08-14-2006, 11:55 PM
Well, it does make more sense than the 1, 2 and 3 deal. But now I have to rewrite my response, damnit. :mad:

Ya, I just put that is an a placeholder. Started writing my response and realized I couldn't get the wording straight in my head.

Google ftw